tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post2425966540458348533..comments2023-10-09T05:25:15.055-07:00Comments on Gravsports: Ice Climbing is NOT rock climbing.Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger110125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-42024219078933320722011-11-04T00:02:18.169-07:002011-11-04T00:02:18.169-07:00Dracula fall
Looks like the pick is loose on the ...Dracula fall <br />Looks like the pick is loose on the tool .At 1:17 <br />What do you think?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-81043165750484386142011-10-19T04:42:35.330-07:002011-10-19T04:42:35.330-07:00Thanks for the great video guys. You are brave to ...Thanks for the great video guys. You are brave to air your mistakes for all the internet climbing and non climbing world to critique. I thought the movie was well made, and your compassion shows through. The music, the scenes, everything, really well done video. Kudos to you for having the guts to show your stuff on camera. Most climbing mistakes do not get made where the world can see them, and most climbers have made mistakes at one point in their careers. The fact is, your buddy fell leading something maybe above his ability, he made some mistakes, and he survived to tell the tale. That's the best part of the movie! How many of us know friends who have died? Raise your hand. This happy ending, and inspiring movie is an awesome teaching tool for the rest of us. Let he who is without blame throw the first stone. Or better yet, how about throwing no stones and just complementing the filmakers and climbers for a job well done, a good rescue, and a good friend who didn't die that day on the ice. An ER doc was already there, how wonderful is that! The Divine Plan is at work in the mountains. I was thrilled with the movie and I hope you make another one. By the way, I no longer climb ice, but I am a rock climber, a former EMT/firefighter, a ski patroller on a snowboard, a cyclist, a farmer, a writer. Every day I take risks for my sports and for my reputation. In all of these pursuits, I have learned from the mistakes of myself and others. I can enjoy this well made video rather than trash the guys who were brave enough to show us their errors. What is the take away from this video, for me? I'm taking with me the great relief and happiness and joy you all felt when you realized your friend survived. I'm taking away the thrill of that last piece holding tight, your friend walking away, the happiness you all felt when you realized he was conscious and breathing. I actually shed a few tears as you lowered your friend and the ER doc checked him out. The music, the scenery, the action. Wow! Thanks again guys, for the rush and the thrill and the joy. <br /><br />You made my day. <br /><br />photonicgirl (aka Jules Harrell)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-38632133200454658762011-08-05T07:49:19.476-07:002011-08-05T07:49:19.476-07:00That was scary from where I am, I can only imagine...That was scary from where I am, I can only imagine what it must have been like to take that fall. It brings reality right home to you. As a skydiver, the thought of the sudden stop at earth is always in the back of your mind. I'm so happy this ended much better than it could have. It's like "Victory!" when things go bad and we are able to walk away from it. Even more so than the sea, altitude is unforgiving of those who would error. Live long guy. Tell your grandchildren about this one day.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-27425318902586102212011-04-15T08:06:41.453-07:002011-04-15T08:06:41.453-07:00wow...I thought I was an ice gumby. these jokers m...wow...I thought I was an ice gumby. these jokers make me look like Guy Lacalle. the worst part about it all is them making it into an epic mini movie. terribleTy Gittinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07925855829350814848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-82338028815819301872011-04-07T21:28:10.013-07:002011-04-07T21:28:10.013-07:00What is the music played in the video?What is the music played in the video?Banghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02795750619155448162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-6992340539505171002011-04-05T04:29:33.818-07:002011-04-05T04:29:33.818-07:00Didn't anyone mention putting ice screws close...Didn't anyone mention putting ice screws closer? Hard to judge from the video, and I havn't climbed this particular climb, however ice looks of sufficient quality. That is a long fall.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-70321757630084857432011-04-04T19:03:23.745-07:002011-04-04T19:03:23.745-07:00There is inexperience and then there is stupidity....There is inexperience and then there is stupidity. We can gain experience but you can't fix stupid. Things like not knowing how to properly use your equipment ie harness, belay device etc is stupid, standing where you will get hit by ice is stupid. You can't fix that sort of thing with experience. This sounds harsh but some people simply don't have what it takes to be a safe climber. Common sense just isn't that common.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-88172967256543721522011-03-31T20:24:22.596-07:002011-03-31T20:24:22.596-07:00Will, your comments need to be heard by every clim...Will, your comments need to be heard by every climber, including myself. <br /><br />I have been ice climbing for about 8 years and luckily learned very early that falling on ice is NOT OK. My first season out I fell top-roping on Kid falls (WI4) which scared me enough to not ever want to let it happen again. Since then, I have had 7 successful and enjoyable seasons gradually ticking off as many of the Canadian Rockies classics as I've had time to, including about a dozen or so WI6 routes. Earlier this season, I was traversing the ice at the base of a route trying to warm up my hands while one friend belayed the other up the first pitch...... and I fell. Luckily I was only a few feet off the snow, and I wasn't hurt, but I was rattled. I consider myself a very safe and conscientious ice climber, but I made the simple mistake of trusting a pick placement I shouldn't have. That is an easy mistake to criticize.<br /><br />There is no question that many things were done wrong in this video, but Will is right, we all make mistakes. I have seen very intelligent and experienced people make stupid mistakes..... I know a well-educated 5.14 climber and climbing instructor who once forgot to finish tying his knot and only through luck, it jammed in his harness when he fell on it. I know he has a habit of having his partner check him before he climbs, but this time he forgot. Todd Skinner was not a dumb, or inexperienced climber but he made the simple mistake of trusting his gear past it's usable life, which cost him his.<br /><br />I don't ever want to lose a friend in the mountains. I hope that rather than using this video to criticize, we use it as an opportunity to educate others and to reflect on ourselves and our own habits. We all have room for improvement.Marknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-15406955532898391762011-03-31T09:53:45.098-07:002011-03-31T09:53:45.098-07:00Whoo... A confused, and therefore confusing,film. ...Whoo... A confused, and therefore confusing,film. I question the whole "putting your embarassment aside and coming clean about your mistakes" premise that some are lauding as a good reason for making this joint. Don't advertise bad practice. Particularly don't advertise bad practice with such an over-the-top soundtrack - I wanted to laugh. Next lesson to learn - don't put films about the lessons you've learned on the internet. It might just show that you haven't.<br /><br />Ah... alright. Never mind. I watch heaps of bad video, beginning, and by no means ending, with "America's Funniest...". And I enjoy it. I've known guys who wear their helmet cam while brushing their teeth, just in case something interesting happens. Things like this are like posting your kids' crayonings on the fridge door. We swim in a sea of amateur efforts. It's the world we live in.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07709860516714189973noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-50817250300480270402011-03-30T20:29:39.208-07:002011-03-30T20:29:39.208-07:00I think it is funny when people think their extrem...I think it is funny when people think their extreme sport is reserved only for them. How does one become extreme? Experience, and this video has taught a lot. Thank you for the vid it was done very nicely.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-70815538308999588522011-03-29T18:08:35.005-07:002011-03-29T18:08:35.005-07:00I am also a very novice ice climber (though I'...I am also a very novice ice climber (though I've been on rock for about a decade now). This year I didn't climb at all b/c I couldn't find someone I trusted to climb with... My previous climbing partner wrecked his knee right as the season had started.<br /><br />Honestly, Some of the comments are over the top. As a novice ice climber all I take away from the video itself is the how easily things can go wrong when you're under prepared, under skilled, naive and ignorant. I welcome any videos that will scare the shit out of me like this one did. It reinforces the need for proper education, preparation, through analysis of self and thorough analysis of the conditions prior to setting up a "safe" climbing experience.<br /><br />In the end I'd love to see a more thorough analysis of each point at which these guys f'd up from someone as experienced as Will. It would simply serve as very real education for the uneducated.<br /><br />No, I don't agree with the general tone of the first video, but it looks like these guys have been humbled and like Dan said, are willing to have themselves be used as an example for the rest of us to learn from. I feel that they are doing their best to combat the very misinformation and egos that resulted in their terrible series of mistakes and I commend them for it.<br /><br />Remember... they could have just pretended it never happened due to embarrassment and shame... then none of us would have been able to analyze the video(s).<br /><br />Thank you for being brave enough to subject yourselves to justified and valuable criticism, despite some ridiculous personal attacks.Murrsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-74155354920641188122011-03-29T09:56:38.102-07:002011-03-29T09:56:38.102-07:00Good gear does not compensate for a lack of skill....Good gear does not compensate for a lack of skill.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-76172369605674850032011-03-29T07:53:46.635-07:002011-03-29T07:53:46.635-07:00As a relative newbie to ice-climbing (a handfull o...As a relative newbie to ice-climbing (a handfull of seconded routes, and all with much more experienced and competent climbers) I've already internalised the "never fall on ice" mantra. While I've taken a lot from the video and all the commentary, I think the most useful thing has simply been the chance to see quite how dramatic and brutal a whipper on ice can be. The nature of falling on ice is so different from rock (my more "natural" medium!) and even more humbling. Thanks for this Will, a valuable collection of lessons to be learnt.Catnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-21922963517819802532011-03-27T16:34:03.353-07:002011-03-27T16:34:03.353-07:00If you are going to participate in any outdoor act...If you are going to participate in any outdoor activity that could be considered dangerous you should have at least basic first aid skills. As skill difficulty increases your FA skills should as well. I've heard mentioned that Rescue Climbing could be a seperate disipline. I agree. Rescue has become part of the equation in some cases. "Somebody will come." You should also include a basic rope rescue course. Although sport rescue and fire company rescue differ slightly, because the truck carries the gear, the techniques are related. I agree with Will that as soon as the fall was arrested the switch to rescue should have started. A quick shout to the climber could reveal much. ABC's. Airway, Breathing, Circulation. Also the level of Responsiveness. This close to the ground he could be reached in a few critical moments, secured and evaluated for any additional injuries that may complicate additional movement. This could make the difference between climbing again or having friends and family feed and clean you the rest of your life. Get a pulse. Once you have determined the extent of the injuries you send out help with that information so incoming rescue comes prepared. In this case there were some more experienced climbers to direct in lowering or stabilizing. You can improvise cervical collars, splints, and even backboards if necessary. But you won't be aware if you don't have the knowledge. What would I have done? Can't say. Situation dictates the treatment. OEC, (Outdoor Emergency Care,) is much different than being in a clinical situation where you can turn, reach out your hand and get everything you need out of an ambulance. You need knowledge, a cool head, and you can make a difference. Check with the Red Cross. They offer basic and advanced first aid and CPR. Get in touch with your local Fire Dept. They're always training for rescue in assorted venues. Stop in to your local Ski Resort and speak with the Ski Patrol. There's knowledge out there. Think about it. Be able to make a difference. Knowledge never hurt anyone.Jakenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-17646898300174829222011-03-27T12:34:04.392-07:002011-03-27T12:34:04.392-07:00@ Will -- In an ideal world, ...
Someone with mor...@ Will -- <i>In an ideal world, ...<br /><br />Someone with more experience can maybe chime in here on what the "ideal" sequence would have been? </i><br /><br />Will, here are some overall thoughts I have. <br /><br />The important thing to realize is that this is not an ideal situation and not a clinical setting. I don't have a problem with the quick lowering off the screw in this terrain, it gets the injured climber to the ground with the least amount of risk to everyone else involved.<br /><br />One thing to notice is the terrain transition from ice to snow at the ground. At that point is where the climber self-corrected with a roll out. More than likely due to his airway getting shut down.<br /><br />When coming into a lowering transition like that and the climber is inverted, I'd prefer not to just grab his head due to the possibility of levering is neck against the movement of his main body. What I'd look for is lowering like they did but stop just off that snow, support him, and transition for a sit-up position. Or, you could work to get him laying flat, keeping the climber supported. <br /><br />You won't be able to fully immobilize him in a buddy rescue but can address the importance of airway & breathing. This is why rapid extrication is called for. I like the sit-up position here as it creates the least amount of levers on his body going from inverted to the final resting point on the ground which doesn't look entirely flat. You should also plan on some hypothermia protection and insulate him from the snow and cold air as best you can.<br /><br />Do the best you can not to do more harm, but also realize a vertical ice wall is no place to keep a climber suspended in an inverted position when you can simply get him on the deck in a few seconds to better support his airway and breathing as well as getting a better assessment performed to see if organized rescue needs to be an option.<br /><br />Let's also keep in mind as to a spinal clearance discussion that a higher medical has the education and experience to make decisions that a normal everyday climber can't.MarkNnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-37839359633588045962011-03-27T10:11:12.284-07:002011-03-27T10:11:12.284-07:00If you are going to be involved in potentially dan...If you are going to be involved in potentially dangerous sports you should have at least a basic first aid course. As you progress, so should your first aid skill. Also exposure to rescue techniques and a basic course in rope rescue can go a long way in providing care for the injured. I agree with Will. Once the fall is stopped rescue should beging from that point. To say the correct progression of care depends on the situation. A vocal response will confirm ABC's. Airway, Breathing, Circulation and level of Responsiveness. There is no time to waste so be careful and efficient.You cannot injure yourself or cause further injury. In this case he was close to the ground so immediate contact would have only taken moments. Valuable moments,which could decide the difference between climbing again or being fed and cleaned by friends and family. Once you make physical contact you can evaluate the extent and level of injuries then send a team, with that knowledge for additioinal assistance if required. If injured critically take the necessary steps to stabilize and monitor the injured and treat for shock, till more assistance arrives. Again you won't know how to do any of this without some training and skill. Remaing calm and controlled is paramont. The most knowledgeable should take charge and manage the scene. A simple first aid pack will handle many scenerios in traind hands. (Ask a Ski Patroller whats in their pac.)I have heard suggested that Rescue Climbing is a style of its own. I believe that to be true. Care enough to be able to help others in need. To be able to do so effectively and efficently can and will help you make a difference when a situatioin falls apart. Check for, OEC, (Outdoor Emergency Care,) courses. You never know, you might have to help yourself.Jakenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-32235955666488088142011-03-26T18:22:16.831-07:002011-03-26T18:22:16.831-07:00so many familar names on here posting
i'll be...so many familar names on here posting<br /><br />i'll be the first to say that its easy to sit on your arse and type what a bunch of idiots boo to them<br /><br />in no way am i supporting anything they or you do. so dont act like your shit doesnt stink and you've never had a situation occur.<br /><br />i can use most fingers on both hands with the names on here and list dangerous and "stupid" behaviour.<br /><br />leading a 20M pitch with 5 screws in and none of which would hold a body weight placement and then bagging the guy who couldnt lead it after you. pity you and your ego<br /><br />so lets keep it to a constructive level (which has mostly been covered) and before you type think back to when you started climbing and those times were you "fucked up" and type accordingly.<br /><br />the community and this blog doesnt need more "what a retard so useless when i climbed the WI4 bit of rogans gully i was way more gooder than him"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-7031002489518389982011-03-26T15:05:25.215-07:002011-03-26T15:05:25.215-07:00Did anybody else in a totally strange way get real...Did anybody else in a totally strange way get really inspired to ice climb from that clip?. Must have been the song.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-27479482922134242682011-03-26T10:55:04.059-07:002011-03-26T10:55:04.059-07:00In an ideal world, which this situation isn't ...In an ideal world, which this situation isn't as I noted and qualified carefully, I'd like to see a little bit of spine stabilization for the last ten feet of the lower. Nothing fancy, just keep major flopping motions from going on. The fallen climber is breathing etc, an extra 30 seconds to scramble up to him and just keep his feet from kipping over etc. would be a good thing. As soon as he's on the ground it looks like there's an effort made to do that. But again, as I noted, this is an intense situation, who knows what I or anyone would have done. Something to think about. I'm used to working on paragliding crashes where it's critical to control the spine as best as possible right away, perhaps this is different. Again, solid job by everyone working there, I just hated watching the legs flop over and the neck move around as it did, that seems not so good to me with my background.<br /><br />Someone with more experience can maybe chime in here on what the "ideal" sequence would have been?Will Gaddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16296395814043276606noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-33761256643807707922011-03-25T17:45:28.998-07:002011-03-25T17:45:28.998-07:00I have to agree with what Rob said in regards to t...I have to agree with what Rob said in regards to the lowering of the climber after the fall. I think they made the right decision at the time based on the circumstances they were presented with. I would like Will and others who disagree with the decision to not just say it was wrong but say what they would have done instead.KenChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11890843297372297183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-6780996065255218742011-03-25T17:15:40.642-07:002011-03-25T17:15:40.642-07:00@Wikswo Then there's the issue of the camera....@Wikswo Then there's the issue of the camera. How much of the decision making was influenced by being filmed?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-40538931998318615842011-03-25T10:25:34.374-07:002011-03-25T10:25:34.374-07:00Very, very educational analysis, Will, thanks for ...Very, very educational analysis, Will, thanks for sharing it in such a straightforward and non-arrogant way.<br /><br />I would like to say, though, that this video doesn't come off to me as so ignorant or machismo as some are making out-- I think there is an air of humility about it. Many, many mistakes were made, but everybody's luckily alright and it does seem that all of those involved in the accident have learned an indelible lesson, as has the wider climbing community, thanks to this blog and the wonder that is modern social networking.<br />I for one would like to see /more/ videos of these guys' climbing antics: a new one, next season, demonstrating all that they've learned and a newfound respect for the danger of their undertaking. Thanks again, Will, for making it clear that to do this, they'll need to take a hard look at their approach to ice climbing.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04377440829768795087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-26052622087062631972011-03-25T09:46:46.207-07:002011-03-25T09:46:46.207-07:00What would you suggest rather than lowering him do...What would you suggest rather than lowering him down, out of interest?<br /><br />I accept that there would be some risk in aggravating any spinal injury but I would argue that getting him quickly to a position where he can be easily assessed (bearing in mind that he also might not have been breathing) trumps that.Robnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-68452695628649904342011-03-25T03:55:53.017-07:002011-03-25T03:55:53.017-07:00@Wikswo Thanks. Humility is never, ever, a bad c...@Wikswo Thanks. Humility is never, ever, a bad character trait.<br /><br />@ Toby, regarding proliferation of vids: this guy appears to be a professional (or at least trying to be one). The video is imho, actually quite good and the story-telling above average. If the attitudes or technical shortcomings offend, that's another story - unrelated to the validity of his wanting to make a video of his friends.<br /><br />@ all who have posted constructive criticism - thanks! I've learned a few things from this dialogue and will definitely be a better climber for it.<br /><br />Cheers...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14697721.post-77716036880043105722011-03-24T23:06:58.776-07:002011-03-24T23:06:58.776-07:00Obviously, these guys understand the importance of...Obviously, these guys understand the importance of not making errors (such as not doubling back a harness)--otherwise they would have died before they'd even spent just two years doing this. <br /><br />So there are really two questions: 1) how could they make a mistake when they didn't know better (e.g., not knowing what a good stick feels like)? and 2) how could they make a mistake when they did know better?<br /><br />The answer to 1) is obvious: they didn't seek proper instruction first. Which is easy to criticize when someone is operating within a well-understood field--but what about the guys who died while pioneering climbing when it was not yet well understood? None of us faults them for having taken their lives into their own hands and spent them contributing to our body of knowledge. <br /><br />The answer to 2) is perhaps less obvious: they were in over their heads, probably overstimulated, and distracted, and they made errors that they would have recognized immediately if they had just noticed them. And I submit that most of us have done the same thing at some point, and unless we never climb outside the very center of our comfort zone--in which case, these guys may be dumb but have much larger bollocks, because they were way out of their comfort zone--then we are prone to making the exact same kind of error, until we acquire enough experience to know better, which is only the same thing these guys were doing. (Plus they were brave enough to go public and allow themselves to get schooled.)<br /><br />The point of which is, only when we have the empathy to understand how they could have got into this situation can we have either the tools to protect ourselves from the same errors or to help them learn to protect themselves.Matthew Wikswonoreply@blogger.com